Tournament: 90 man $8+$0.80 NLH
Place: Poker Stars
Date: 03/20/2009
Before the following Amateur Poker Blunder took place, I can still remember the last time I limped with aces. It was about 3 years ago on Full Tilt. I had won a micro buy-in satellite to a $25+$2 tournament which, at the time, was probably the biggest buy-in I had ever participated in online (even though it only cost me a couple of bucks). Long story short, we were on the bubble, I limped with aces UTG, no-one raised, someone flopped two pair, and I ended up being the bubble boy. Since that day, I have have been a strong opponent of limping with aces, for obvious reasons. Whenever I play live and I see someone do it, I invariably bend their ear about why they did it, and about what a bad play I think it is.
Now I know some players will make a case for limping with aces in early position at an aggressive table (which was exactly the situation I found myself in the other day), but I think those same players will admit that it is also a very risky proposition. This is why my rule about limping with aces is don't do it ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. I don't think I had enough evers memorized, so here we are (thank you Brian Regan for the 'ever' bit).
This was not the same situation as 3 years ago by any means. That time I was just playing like a pussy because we were on the bubble. This time I think my pre-flop play was almost justified. My table was VERY aggressive. There were 3 different players that were consistently raising 4 to 5 times the blinds, even with what I consider to be marginal holdings. I had already seen two different players take advantage of this by limping in early position with AA and KK respectively, and both players got raised pre-flop and ended up raking in huge pots.
We are 9 handed and the blinds are at 30/60. I have 2920 in chips (below average for the table). I was UTG+1 and the action is folded to me. I look at A
A
.
Now I have already mentioned how aggressive this table was, but like I said, I am usually dead against limping with aces. After all, I hadn't done it in THREE YEARS. That's a lot of poker hands and I must have had aces in early position hundreds of times over that span. But seeing the big pots raked in by those 2 other players with the same play, I end the drought.
I limp. A player in MP limps. The cutoff limps. The button limps. The SB completes. The BB checks.
@*#%!!! I wanted to cry. No one raised and now I am in a 6 way pot with aces. Not good. Any sane player knows to play the rest of this hand very cautiously, but I am slightly tilting because none of these loose aggressive players raised. Why me? It was at this moment I knew I was going to lose all my chips.
The flop comes out 7
26.
I must say I was slightly relieved when I saw this flop. Barring someone limping with 77, 66 or 22, which would give them a set, there would have to be some really garbage hands out there for my aces to be behind. I think it's probably safe to thin out the field with a bet.
It is checked to me and I bet 300 into the 360 pot. The player in MP calls and everyone else folds.
Well at least there are only 2 players now. The player in middle position could have a wide variety of hands in a limped pot, but I narrow it down to A7, A6, maybe 88, but most likely a flush draw. Only a garbage hand has two pair or a straight draw so I rule those possibilities out. I am definitely thinking flush draw.
The turn comes out 4.
OK, that's gotta be a brick. I've already ruled out the straight draw so that card could not have helped. I decide to end his flush draw right here.
I push all in for 2560 into a 960 pot. My opponent snap calls and shows 72 for two pair. He has me covered.
So now I AM crying. Not really but you can imagine how I felt after such a huge Blunder. At least I am not drawing dead.
The river bricks out 3
and I am eliminated.
I don't think I have to tell you how demoralizing it feels to lose to 72 with AA, especially when it was all my fault for not raising pre-flop. But I guess this blog wouldn't exist if it weren't for Amateur Poker Blunders like this one.
So please, I beg you to use the following information against me. If we are playing against each other in a limped pot, I can one million percent guarantee I do not have aces. That's because I AM NEVER LIMPING WITH ACES AGAIN. This time I promise.
Your comments, critique, advice and ridicule are always appreciated. I have been called every name in the book, but keep in mind that your comments will be screened for profanity and/or spam.
That's the Last Time I Limp With Aces
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11 comments:
I have the same beat with my Aces against 8 4 offsuite. Yep You really have to bet to protect or call a raise from an earlier player.
It sucks, but that is poker mate.
Never mind, you know it happens to ALL players from time to time.
Your problem isn't limping with aces, it's over playing them after the flop. The reason most players don't limp with aces is cuz they're too married to them to let go of them when they're beat. When dude calls you, don't go all in. Bet to take off the flush, or check fold. Here's the thing to always remember: you have aces now and may have to chuck em, but YOU WILL GET ACES AGAIN. So why feel the need to put all your chips in after the flop. When i get aces I raise preflop, or I don't, but regardless of which track i take, i'm happy to throw them away if I feel i'm beat. If you check and are forced all in, make a decision and be happy with it one way or the other...if you fold and say u had AA and he shows a bluff, that's in your favor, and if he shows the nuts THATS in your favor too. Any two cards can win at hold em, any two cards can be played preflop. It's what u do with them after the flop that matters. Just my opinion.
6 way pot with aces kind of sucks. But the limp isn't bad at an aggressive table.
I wouldn't bet pot size on flop, I would bet 2/3rds. 2.5 pot size bet on the turn is over kill but if it's a donkament than maybe it's the right play. I haven't really played any mtts.
Do you play cash game? I just started playing cash game and I won more money with 22 than AA. My nickname is mr_gene_yuss on Pokerstars, I'm playing NL25.
My Blog; http://www.poker006.com/
It really is hard to figure out how to play the AA in the first place whether it's an aggressive table or not? It seems every time I play on line I end up playing them wrong.
Nora from http://nochiprasblogspot.blogspot.com
You know my feelings on limping with Aces. You should treat aces like your first born children, protect them. Everytime someone even starts to tell me a boo-hoo story about "cracked aces" I always start by asking "How much did you raise them pre-flop"? If the answer is "nothing" I don't even want to hear the end of the story.
Funny..did everyone lose with AA over the weekend..playing .10/.25 nl in the BB had the guy on the button raise to .75(instead of re-raising I called) flop is 10 4 2 rainbow..I bet pot get re-raised and shove(he was short stacked so it was only another $6) he turns over KK and hits a K on 4th street...only thing I do different is re-raise which would have more then likely put him all in pre flop...no way I see him mucking short stacked
nice post. I've been pondering the question of how to play aces or high pairs in early position quite a bit recently. seems limping has become so much standard at some games that an utg limp is actually considered a threatening move by the regulars, so you have to consider who you want to call you and how liekly they are to know this. in the end you start standard-raising with aces utg to disguise them, which was the way to play them to begin with ;)
recently bubbled out slowplaying jacks preflop and letting the button with T8 see the flop. Flop comes of course T8x and I shove...
given that the button prly wouldve called with Tx as well, I'm still not sure if this mightve been a good move ... "on the long run"
strange game. nice blog though (could be the title of my poker memoirs), gonna rss you :)
Sometimes when you have Aces at hand, you feel absolutely confident with your cards. However you'll realize how bad it is to just have 2 while the other have royals.
I absolutely hate this viewpoint, the more I play poker the more I hate this stubborn mindset of "I never limp AA because I gotta protect them!"
There's a time and a place to limp AA, just like there's a time and a place to do almost anything at a poker table quite frankly.
I can't even express in words how many times I limp with AA being a SNG player, it's absolutely absurd, I limp AA so often it makes me want to cry. Not from early position, not only at an agressive table. If you're relatively short stacked(under 20 BB), there's almost always a case to limping aces and going broke borderline regardless of flop just because of the equity edge you have against any random hand. Think about it like this : If you're a reasonable MTT player, I think shoving PF with 77 for 13 BB is a "standard" play. If you're willing to do that, why not be willing to limp AA? Which one do you think is the more profitable play over the long haul? Granted you give up fold equity to steal blinds preflop, but you gain so much post flop.
Anyway, I have a much larger beef with viewpoints like this, and it comes from your analysis. You go on this rant for a few paragraphs to explain why you limped AA, which is, and I dare you to read it back to yourself because I think you'll agree, the reasoning you provide is logical and strong. You've provided sound reasoning for doing what you did...so stand by it!
The thing I find stunning about this post is, you're a smart guy and a solid player. It's shocking to me that you provide sound reasoning for doing something then just chock up you losing all your chips here to making that play. Meanwhile, the actual "Amateur Poker Blunder" in the hand, you just dismissively say "so I decide to end his flush draw right there", and NEVER ANALYZE it.
Your mistake isn't not raising preflop, you had a reason to do it, you did it, it's never a losing play to do it.
UNLESS...
You're going to shove 2500 at 900 postflop. You have 50 BB to start this hand, you put 6 into the pot preflop and on the flop combined, leaving you with FOURTY FOUR big blinds, and then you just straight shoved 44 BB on the turn of a small scary board for 3x the pot, when you only ever let hands that crush you call. He's never calling his flush draw(you want him to be calling on a flush draw because he has a worse hand than you if he has a flush draw, and our objective in poker is to make a worse hand call you, remember?), and I'd be stunned(maybe not) if he's bad enough to call with a random 1 pair on the board. He's calling sets, 2 pairs, straights. That's it. You don't do good against those hands.
I'm all for the blog, self analysis kicks ass, and looking at where you made a mistake in a hand and finding leaks is great.
Make sure you're looking in the right place. It's easy to say "I limped AA that's why he ended up in the pot with 7/2 and cracked them!"...but that's not the point and that's a narrow minded viewpoint.
Your mistake is randomly shoving 44 big blinds on the turn...always...you're freezing out almost any hand you gain equity from, and hand your chips to any hand he has that's big enough to call, of which you beat basically none of them.
If you limped AA and the flop came 9/2/4 and the guy stacked off to you with K/9 would you have made a blog called "ZOMG IM A POKER SUPERSTAR!"?
Limping AA isn't the problem, it's a profitable play to make almost always, and it's incredibly profitable if you're a solid post flop player. There's infinity+23 proofs of that in any poker math simulation.
I would love to see you show me where shoving 2560 and 960 with AA on that board texture in a 6 way limped pot is profitable though. If you can do that, then I'll take back what I said.
Until then, one play is proven to be profitable, and one play I can guarantee you is proven to be terrible. Where do you think your mistake was?
I'm certainly no pro, so I won't climb up on a soap box and lecture you as if I've written 3 books on holdem...but as many have commented, there are certainly many circumstances that limping w/ aces is a reasonable play in my opinion. It's just one of those times where it's hard to know where you are in the hand and you've got to proceed cautiously post-flop. Aces or not, you're still pushing with only 1 pair with a moderately coordinated board. It's difficult to comment any more not knowing how your opponent has been playing, his stack size, any reads you may have had on him, etc...
Where are you now? It seems you've learned your lesson well regarding limping ACES. Have you tried playing at http://bingohouse.com -- you should and try your luck there
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